17 Beiträge in diesem Thema

Hi guys

I have millway street camber plates on its way, and also an M4 alu strutbrace (BMW 7855865) with reinforcement for support bearing (BMW 31302285700) to retrofit on my f21. 

I would like to hear you BMW F20/F21 owners wheels alignment setup, for use on track and/or also on road. 
I would like to have SOME sharp turn in, but i also want straight line stability, because of daily driving, i know i cant have the best of both worlds, but i am okay with that. 

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The car is on H&R springs with stock EDC dampers. 

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I’d recommend to try it like this:

camber front -1,5/-1,7
camber rear -1,2

toe in front 0,10 in total
toe in rear 0,15 each

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With stock suspension and H&R springs (M235i), my alignment was like this:

Front: 0°00 toe (you can't adjust the camber anyways)

Rear: 0°12 toe in with -1°50 camber

If you go with more toe in in the front, your outer shoulder will be scraped even more than it already is with stock front camber.

bearbeitet von xerik

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb xerik:

With stock suspension and H&R springs (M235i), my alignment was like this:

Front: 0°00 toe (you can't adjust the camber anyways)

Rear: 0°12 toe in with -1°50 camber

If you go with more toe in in the front, your outer shoulder will be scraped even more than it already is with stock front camber.

With your front toe at 0°00, how was the straight line stability? I have around -3° camber, so i think with a slight toe in, i should be okay, without riding on the outer shoulder? 

I like that you use a little toe in - in the back, i can imagine that the rear end feels stable going through fast corners? Are the 0°12 the total toe? (0°06 each wheel?) 

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vor 18 Stunden schrieb Krabbenschubser:

I’d recommend to try it like this:

camber front -1,5/-1,7
camber rear -1,2

toe in front 0,10 in total
toe in rear 0,15 each

I need to run at least 2.8 front camber, because i run a 18x9 rim with 255 ns2r, otherwise my front tires are going to scrape on the fenders. I know that the inside of my wheel will wear faster, but i am okay with that. 

But i see your recommendations are very close to Xerik so i will definately try to aim for an alignment close to both of you.

 

What would the difference be with more or lesser toe in, in the rear have a impact on? 

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vor 14 Minuten schrieb VikingPower:

I need to run at least 2.8 front camber, because i run a 18x9 rim with 255 ns2r, otherwise my front tires are going to scrape on the fenders. I know that the inside of my wheel will wear faster, but i am okay with that. 

But i see your recommendations are very close to Xerik so i will definately try to aim for an alignment close to both of you.

 

What would the difference be with more or lesser toe in, in the rear have a impact on? 

Hi,

-2.8 is quite a lot of camber for daily use, even though it’s understandable due to the wheel size. 255s on a 9j wheel is quite wide. A 245 or a 235 could help here as well. 
Regarding toe in at the rear, it usually adds stability as it does on the front as well (where it also adds in turn-in response, but that also can be done with toe out here - be careful with that adjustment —> as toe out on the rear it would mainly be used on hardcore drift cars and is pain in the ass at higher speeds and in daily driving)

Wheel alignment is pretty difficult to explain in a few sentences and to be honest, I’m learning still myself. Unfortunately I’m not sure if Wolfgang Weber’s book “Fahrdynamik in Perfektion” is available in English, as I’ve found no informations on this. 
But, there should be something out there in English on this topic, maybe you can find yourself something to buy and learn from. 
As complex as it is, it’s totally helpful. Many workshops even don’t know how to do this stuff correctly, so having insight is key. 

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Krabbenschubser:

Hi,

-2.8 is quite a lot of camber for daily use, even though it’s understandable due to the wheel size. 255s on a 9j wheel is quite wide. A 245 or a 235 could help here as well. 
Regarding toe in at the rear, it usually adds stability as it does on the front as well (where it also adds in turn-in response, but that also can be done with toe out here - be careful with that adjustment —> as toe out on the rear it would mainly be used on hardcore drift cars and is pain in the ass at higher speeds and in daily driving)

Wheel alignment is pretty difficult to explain in a few sentences and to be honest, I’m learning still myself. Unfortunately I’m not sure if Wolfgang Weber’s book “Fahrdynamik in Perfektion” is available in English, as I’ve found no informations on this. 
But, there should be something out there in English on this topic, maybe you can find yourself something to buy and learn from. 
As complex as it is, it’s totally helpful. Many workshops even don’t know how to do this stuff correctly, so having insight is key. 

Hi

yes, i know it is a lot of camber, but it seems to work pretty well, i dont have issues with front tyres locking up under hard braking, so i think is still sufficient. 
I made some measurements with a ruler back in Decmber with the rim width and 255 tyres, if i remember correct, the rubber surface had 228 mm from outside to outside where it is mounted to the rim and the rim had 229 mm from inside lip to inside lip, so there are basically zero stretch on the sidewalls but there are some rim protection from the tyre sidewall..

Yes i understand wheel alignment is a learning by doing process, but also if a very good source of information like books/other people experience can help a lot to stear one in the right direction. And as you are saying, you are definately right in this term "Many workshops even don’t know how to do this stuff correctly", in Denmark we have so little motorsport capable people, because it is really not in our DNA as a country. Motorist are sadly a hated culture here.. If you are a petrolhead, some people automatically think you are an uncultured idiot. 
This is also, why I as a Danish man, have been going to a german trackdayforum, because germans have a lot more experienced especially on the higher end sport cars. :14_relaxed:  

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Ahh okay, I didn't read you run that much camber in the front.

I also drove with -3° camber up front with daily use and had absolutely zero problems, I even drove it with winter tires for a while.

With -3° camber I had 0°04 toe in (each wheel), that was about the perfect amount of toe in so the steering was not too nervous but still very direct.

In the back I also had 0°13 toe in (each wheel), nearly the same as my alignment with stock suspension. I wouldn't go with anything lower than like 0°12 - 0°14 toe in if you got stock bushings and no uniballs, because the bushings are so soft that somethings you almost go to toe out, if you don't have enough toe in.

The 0°13 added stability, ecspecially with higher speeds and on track, I wouldn't want to miss

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vor 17 Stunden schrieb xerik:

Ahh okay, I didn't read you run that much camber in the front.

I also drove with -3° camber up front with daily use and had absolutely zero problems, I even drove it with winter tires for a while.

With -3° camber I had 0°04 toe in (each wheel), that was about the perfect amount of toe in so the steering was not too nervous but still very direct.

In the back I also had 0°13 toe in (each wheel), nearly the same as my alignment with stock suspension. I wouldn't go with anything lower than like 0°12 - 0°14 toe in if you got stock bushings and no uniballs, because the bushings are so soft that somethings you almost go to toe out, if you don't have enough toe in.

The 0°13 added stability, ecspecially with higher speeds and on track, I wouldn't want to miss

Okay, i will try your alignment setup this summer, and see how well the car will perform this summer on road and track. I will attend some trackdays at Padburg park this year, they have already put out the dates on their website. I am as a driver also more comfortable with a car stable at higher speeds, i have been on the Nordschleife for the first time in August, and i could immediatly feel how unstable my rear end felt.. i drove both the GP track and the Nordschleife and man that was some fun. Now i just need to upgrade the car and come back and do more laps next time. 

Oh back on subject.. i have no plans of uniballs unfortunately, in Dänemark TüV wont approve of use, so i would need to mount some sort of a stiffer rubber bushings or something like millway bushings perhaps. The thing is, if there are clicking noises from any suspension parts, when they test for play, they will tell me it is broken and shouldnt do that. so I am well aware of what i can do and cant do, unfortunately. 

thank you for chiming in to stear me in the right direction with alignment specs, and ofcourse also thanks to the other guys chiming in. 

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb VikingPower:

Okay, i will try your alignment setup this summer, and see how well the car will perform this summer on road and track. I will attend some trackdays at Padburg park this year, they have already put out the dates on their website. I am as a driver also more comfortable with a car stable at higher speeds, i have been on the Nordschleife for the first time in August, and i could immediatly feel how unstable my rear end felt.. i drove both the GP track and the Nordschleife and man that was some fun. Now i just need to upgrade the car and come back and do more laps next time. 

Oh back on subject.. i have no plans of uniballs unfortunately, in Dänemark TüV wont approve of use, so i would need to mount some sort of a stiffer rubber bushings or something like millway bushings perhaps. The thing is, if there are clicking noises from any suspension parts, when they test for play, they will tell me it is broken and shouldnt do that. so I am well aware of what i can do and cant do, unfortunately. 

thank you for chiming in to stear me in the right direction with alignment specs, and ofcourse also thanks to the other guys chiming in. 

Sounds like quite a nice plan for this summer!
I suggest to visit on of the workshops around the ring the next time you´re heading there, as they can help you as good as possible.
e.g.
Philipp Weber, his workshop is at Rent4Ring,  in Nürburg  Philipp (@that_nurburgring_guy) • Instagram-Fotos und -Videos
Carl Schwarz and his Team at Custom Ractec, in Kelberg  Start - Custom Racetec (custom-racetec.de)
Raeder Motorsport, in Meuspath, non porsche cars division of  Über Raeder Motorsport - Manthey-Racing (manthey-racing.de)

Just to name a few.
A good alignment is well invested money, and if you´re maybe planing on putting a coilover on your car it makes even more sense.

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb Krabbenschubser:

Sounds like quite a nice plan for this summer!
I suggest to visit on of the workshops around the ring the next time you´re heading there, as they can help you as good as possible.
e.g.
Philipp Weber, his workshop is at Rent4Ring,  in Nürburg  Philipp (@that_nurburgring_guy) • Instagram-Fotos und -Videos
Carl Schwarz and his Team at Custom Ractec, in Kelberg  Start - Custom Racetec (custom-racetec.de)
Raeder Motorsport, in Meuspath, non porsche cars division of  Über Raeder Motorsport - Manthey-Racing (manthey-racing.de)

Just to name a few.
A good alignment is well invested money, and if you´re maybe planing on putting a coilover on your car it makes even more sense.

Thanks buddy! That some very helpful information.
I did think go to Raeder/Manthey, next time i'm around Nurburg, to get a proper alignment and maybe some tips to improve on my car.. 
Oh man, who wouldnt love a Manthey build gt3rs :778_heartbeat: Well well, dreams are there to head you in the right direction or just to sleep better :8_laughing:

Next winter i will plan to do some coilovers.. I think i want something 2 ways with rebound/damping setting in one knob, just to make it a little more simple for me to adjust.


 

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You‘re welcome!

I’d most definitely do an appointment in advance to ensure they can take care properly and with no hesitation.
Alignment itself won’t take too long, as long you only need this.
With coilovers you’ll need up to 3h, easily. 

For the modern BMW KW Clubsport is among the best you can get for a street legal car,  besides ÖHLINS maybe. 
H&R Suspensions are pretty damn good, if you’re ok with a non adjustable suspension, which can be a very good Solution too. 

Raeder is KW Partner as Philipp Weber and Custom Racetec as well.
MKR Engineering in Kelberg is ÖHLINS Partner and a pretty experienced workshop as well. 
Nasy Performance is H&R Partner and very experienced with Trackcars as well. 

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Am 12.1.2021 um 20:53 schrieb Krabbenschubser:

You‘re welcome!

I’d most definitely do an appointment in advance to ensure they can take care properly and with no hesitation.
Alignment itself won’t take too long, as long you only need this.
With coilovers you’ll need up to 3h, easily. 

For the modern BMW KW Clubsport is among the best you can get for a street legal car,  besides ÖHLINS maybe. 
H&R Suspensions are pretty damn good, if you’re ok with a non adjustable suspension, which can be a very good Solution too. 

Raeder is KW Partner as Philipp Weber and Custom Racetec as well.
MKR Engineering in Kelberg is ÖHLINS Partner and a pretty experienced workshop as well. 
Nasy Performance is H&R Partner and very experienced with Trackcars as well. 

Sorry i havent answered you before now. 
- Sure I will to call them and have an appoitment, when needed. I just found out locally to me, there is a shop who has a Hunter alignment tool, so i think i'll let them do the aligment, with the specs i have received in this thread.  
I have read alot of good reviews of KW clubsport, but i'm afraid that it probably will be out of my price range. Bilstein B16 Pss10 is probably what i can justify to pay for.
But what kind of H&R suspension do you have in mind? Maybe i can combine something that already works with my H&R springs, if i just need to change my dampers, i kind of like the right height that i have currently. But i definately want lesser bodyroll and bouncing in the corners.  

Thank you for you dvices, i appreciate it alot! 

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vor 42 Minuten schrieb VikingPower:

Sorry i havent answered you before now. 
- Sure I will to call them and have an appoitment, when needed. I just found out locally to me, there is a shop who has a Hunter alignment tool, so i think i'll let them do the aligment, with the specs i have received in this thread.  
I have read alot of good reviews of KW clubsport, but i'm afraid that it probably will be out of my price range. Bilstein B16 Pss10 is probably what i can justify to pay for.
But what kind of H&R suspension do you have in mind? Maybe i can combine something that already works with my H&R springs, if i just need to change my dampers, i kind of like the right height that i have currently. But i definately want lesser bodyroll and bouncing in the corners.  

Thank you for you dvices, i appreciate it alot! 

Hi!

my workshop has a Hunter alignment tool too. It’s pretty good, if your know your ways around. 
 

The Bilstein coilovers are pretty ok on a street car, but definitely to soft for a regular Trackday usw. The price for the KW Clubsport is pretty much worth it, as it’s not exactly harder than stock suspension if set up correctly but drives much more compliant. Friend has it on an M2 with Raeder Setup and he’s frikken happy!

Switching the H&R Springs onto an actual coilover won’t work, as spring sizes, diameters etc will most certainly differ.

Nasy Performance offer several Coilovers for BMW cars, I’d ask them on the right version for your car.

Generally I’d say, it doesn’t have to be damping adjustable, especially if budget matters.

 

cheers

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