VikingPower

BMW F21 M135iR aus Dänemark

212 Beiträge in diesem Thema

This is not the first time I have heard and read that customers of 24/7 Performance are bashing other companys.
It is quite obvious that after the first talks at 24/7 Performance, customers always go home with the feeling that everything that has been modified on their cars so far endangers their safety to the fullest extent or at least was put together and installed in an absolutely bungling way. That should give you something to think about.
Personally I think this business behavior is unprofessional.  The customers are used for trench warfare and personal vendettas. This results in unobjective statements.  
 

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb VikingPower:

Well, he transformed my car to the better. I got an aligment before i went to Karl, the stearing wheel was croocked to one side afterwords, handling was very nervous.
so i went to Karl who had it for a half a day, he did wonders to it..
I'm not the fastest Nordschlefie driver, but the day after i went to Nordschleife same day i blowed my engine, i was driving faster than the majority on track. It was damp but i still had grip where others didnt.. The results are easy to see and feel.. That is now, why Karl is the main guy who will finish my project.  

I'm glad you got a setup from 24/7 that works so well for you. I am not questioning the quality of his work or his experience, maybe 24/7 is the best garage at the Nordschleife, I can not judge that. But my point is different, it's about the behavior towards other companies and that he conditions his customers in such a way that they go after others like a pack of attack dogs without questioning things. This is a question of character. I wish you much success with the complementation of your build and many nice laps on the Nordschleife in the year 2023. :1312_thumbsup_tone3:

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vor 39 Minuten schrieb KT89:

I'm glad you got a setup from 24/7 that works so well for you. I am not questioning the quality of his work or his experience, maybe 24/7 is the best garage at the Nordschleife, I can not judge that. But my point is different, it's about the behavior towards other companies and that he conditions his customers in such a way that they go after others like a pack of attack dogs without questioning things. This is a question of character. I wish you much success with the complementation of your build and many nice laps on the Nordschleife in the year 2023. :1312_thumbsup_tone3:

Naah i don't think we/I go after other companies like a pack of attack dogs. But I for sure do call out a company, who started to bad mouthing Karls abillities when their own product had big design flaws. I just stating that the product from 55parts where weak, even compared to other AP systems, with AP discs, that is all. 
Thanks and you too! 

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vor 19 Minuten schrieb VikingPower:

Naah i don't think we/I go after other companies like a pack of attack dogs. But I for sure do call out a company, who started to bad mouthing Karls abillities when their own product had big design flaws. I just stating that the product from 55parts where weak, even compared to other AP systems, with AP discs, that is all. 
Thanks and you too! 

I get headaches with such ignorance. Over&Out.

660b7944b58dc081d1ea06ed238b3e983e5653eb.jpeg

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I already said im out of this, but since @VikingPowerPower is continue to give false information, i decided to give a last update from my side explaining why the statements made are wrong. @Bastorsaid this could have been a good discusstion, so i will try to fill my posting with information which adds value besides correcting false statements.

First: There are different systems on how to achieve float in a disc/bell setup:

Float in the Bell

This is what´s mostly used by Brembo: You take a disc which has "normal" mounting holes (the name for those mounting option is "bolted") and connect it with a bell/hat which makes the whole piece floating. The bell has bigger holes then the screw which are used to mount the bell to the disc. To "fill out this bigger hole", some hardware called bobbins are used. To prevent the disc/bell combination from rattling Anti Rattle hardware is used, which preloads the connection.

This is called "Float in the Bell" and can be used with a bolted disc (no matter from which brand) to achieve a full floating kit.

It looks like this: disco-forato-Brembo.jpg

This system is also used in some OEM cars with brembo brakes, because it combines the good things of floating discs (like stated, fewer heat cracks, better heat distribution etc.) with streetfriendly noise level, because of the anti rattle hardware.

The disadvantage with this system is, that the bell needs to be changed on every second disc (or something like this) because it wears on the connection and "the bigger holes" in which the bobbin sits.

 

Float in the Disc

This is the System which is used all over in Motorsports. Here you do not have the "bigger hole" in the bell, but you have it in the disc. That means the Bobbin, which "fills this bigger hole" is placed in the disc and on the bell there are "normal" mounting holes. The Float is in the disc and not in the bell. Looking at the bell you just see a normal nut on top of it. That this design is floating can only be seen from the inside.

It looks like this: exploded_float_in_disc_edited_1.jpg

You can find this system among a lot of motorsport cars: M4 GT3 (F and G-Series), all BTCC cars, M3 GT2, M6 GT3 and soo much more, i think you get it. You can read it on the AP page, but cars with those AP Racing discs with float in the disc won all sort of championships: F1, Nascar Cup, IMSA, Super GT, DTM etc. etc.  I would say going to a official race almost 90% of the cars are using AP Racing discs with float in the disc and this system.

PFC for example also has discs with this design, go check out the brake kit on a Golf VII TCR- same design of fastening the bell to disc, but discs made from PFC compiled with AP Racing calipers. Why didnt they use the other PFC design? Only VW knows.

The problem with this system is, that by design there is no preload on the connection. If Bell, disc and bobbins are new (this varies also on disc, bobbin combination) you cannot feel the float (which is what @Fox906bgand @VikingPowerexperienced) but depending on which disc and bobbin combination is used and how old they are the brakes, especially when cold, will make extremely loud noises, because you hear the disc "wobbles" around due to the float without preload.

Although i understand, that noises shouldn´t be an issue for race cars, for us the sounds you got with those types of setups were not bearable. Even just driving the car from your garage at the ring to the entrance will sound so awful, that we would have a alot of customers complaining if we would have sold it like that.

So what we came up with was the idea to use the brembo anti rattle hardware to give a little pretension on the connection. We basically used the idea of the float in the bell connection to make the better float in the disc system "streetable". We tried if it´s necesarry to use 12 (on a disc with 12 holes) or 6 of those anti rattle sheets and we found out that with 6 the awful noise is totally gone, while the pretension is still not too big, so the disc can still expand during usage on the track.

It doesnt matter if this little clip sits 100% straight on the disc- all it needs to do is give a little preload and this is what it´s doing perfectly fine.

Those 2 designs mentioned are widely used. PFC came up with their own design of discs and fixing the bell to the disc. I think their design is nice and it probably works good as well. But stating this is used among racing teams and the AP Design of our kit is not is again: Just nonsense.

 

Since you keep yelling our bells were designed wrong:

In case of this Float in the disc setup the bell does not have any special design requirements. It needs to fullfill the PCD of the disc and has to have the right thickness for the screws of the AP bobbin set used.  How much float you have is set up by the bobbins used. There are different bobbins for different float requirements.

The Bell CAN have cutouts for a better ventilation, but this is not necessary and it´s not the case in almost all bells which are designed and produced by OEM´s, for example BMW. We measured a lot of temperatures to check if there is any need for a more complicated bell design, but it isnt. If you run GP tracks, you are perfectly fine running the bigger CP9665 calipers with 25mm pads and you are not going to have any problem. The Bell of the PFC discs is also flat without any ventilation cutouts, so telling its a bad design without would basically mean the design you now bought is bad as well.

So again: In our Kit there is NO design issue. NOTHING is made wrong. Even further: In case of the 378x36 discs which were used in this kit you could have just put the brembo anti rattle hardware off and mount them without. Stating the discs are not making "clicking" noises without the brembo pretension hardware and using this as a proof they are going to click, is again, absolutely mindblowing.

 

And just again a comment to the comparison of the PFC discs with their own system mentioned and used by 24/7 and the AP System of our set:

We have 2 customers which both had the PFC System (Schirmer also uses this system) and they switched to AP discs with the float in the disc style. One case is the youtuber Tom Schütze, he switched from 378x35 to 368x36 BTCC AP Racing Discs.

The AP discs (while being used) had a life which was around 4-5 times higher then the PFC!

This car get´s driven mostly on the nordschleife but also a lot on GP Tracks. IMO it´s one of the fastest (if not the fastest) streetlegal BMW on Bilster Berg.

 

So from my side im really finished now.

But I have to recap one last time: We took back a custom made kit, 2 months after it was ordered with discs which look like shit (just to remind again: Those were NEW 378x36 discs, which are 1000€ ++) based on informations, which are wrong. We did took them back just because we did want to make everyone involved happy, we were nowhere forced to take back anything.  We even split the kit, so you were able to keep the calipers, which are sold out EVERYWHERE.

In my world this would make me write a good review, because i can assure every other shop out there would have decided different.

But in your case this leads to spreading wrong information, saying the kit is shit when you did not even try it and continue to do so, when everyone who posted here is telling you, you are in fact wrong.

 

Like i say: Mindblown, absolutely mindblown....

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1 hour ago frontside0815 wrote:

I already said im out of this, but since@VikingPowerPower is continue to give false information, I decided to give a last update from my side explaining why the statements made are wrong.@Bastorsaid this could have been a good discussion, so i will try to fill my posting with information which adds value besides correcting false statements.

First: There are different systems on how to achieve float in a disc/bell setup:

Float in the Bell

This is what´s mostly used by Brembo: You take a disc which has "normal" mounting holes (the name for those mounting option is "bolted") and connect it with a bell/hat which makes the whole piece floating. The bell has bigger holes then the screw which are used to mount the bell to the disc. To "fill out this bigger hole", some hardware called bobbins are used. To prevent the disc/bell combination from rattling Anti Rattle hardware is used, which preloads the connection.

This is called "Float in the Bell" and can be used with a bolted disc (no matter from which brand) to achieve a full floating kit.

It looks like this:disco-forato-Brembo.jpg

This system is also used in some OEM cars with brembo brakes, because it combines the good things of floating discs (like stated, fewer heat cracks, better heat distribution etc.) with street-friendly noise level, because of the anti-rattle hardware .

The disadvantage with this system is that the bell needs to be changed on every second disc (or something like this) because it wears on the connection and "the bigger holes" in which the bobbin sits.

 

Float in the Disc

This is the system which is used all over in Motorsports. Here you do not have the "bigger hole" in the bell, but you have it in the disc. That means the Bobbin, which "fills this bigger hole" is placed in the disc and on the bell there are "normal" mounting holes. The float is in the disc and not in the bell. Looking at the bell you just see a normal nut on top of it. That this design is floating can only be seen from the inside.

It looks like this:exploded_float_in_disc_edited_1.jpg

You can find this system among a lot of motorsport cars: M4 GT3 (F and G-Series), all BTCC cars, M3 GT2, M6 GT3 and soo much more, i think you get it. You can read it on the AP page, but cars with those AP Racing discs with float in the disc won all sort of championships: F1, Nascar Cup, IMSA, Super GT, DTM etc. etc. I would say going to an official race Almost 90% of the cars are using AP Racing discs with float in the disc and this system.

PFC for example also has discs with this design, go check out the brake kit on a Golf VII TCR- same design of fastening the bell to disc, but discs made from PFC compiled with AP Racing calipers. Why didn't they use the other PFC design? Only VW knows.

The problem with this system is that by design there is no preload on the connection. If Bell, disc and bobbins are new (this varies also on disc, bobbin combination) you cannot feel the float (which is what@Fox906bgother@VikingPowerexperienced) but depending on which disc and bobbin combination is used and how old they are the brakes, especially when cold, will make extremely loud noises, because you hear the disc "wobbles" around due to the float without preload.

Although I understand that noises shouldn't be an issue for race cars, for us the sounds you got with those types of setups were not bearable. Even just driving the car from your garage at the ring to the entrance will sound so awful that we would have a lot of customers complaining if we would have sold it like that.

So what we came up with was the idea to use the brembo anti rattle hardware to give a little pretension on the connection. We basically used the idea of the float in the bell connection to make the better float in the disc system "streetable". We tried if it´s necesarry to use 12 (on a disc with 12 holes) or 6 of those anti rattle sheets and we found out that with 6 the awful noise is totally gone, while the pretension is still not too big, so the disc can still expand during usage on the track.

It doesn't matter if this little clip sits 100% straight on the disc - all it needs to do is give a little preload and this is what it's doing perfectly fine.

Those 2 designs mentioned are widely used. PFC came up with their own design of discs and fixing the bell to the disc. I think their design is nice and it probably works good as well. But stating this is used among racing teams and the AP design of our kit is not is again: Just nonsense.

 

Since you keep yelling our bells were designed wrong:

In the case of this float in the disc setup the bell does not have any special design requirements. It needs to fullfill the PCD of the disc and has to have the right thickness for the screws of the AP bobbin set used. How much float you have is set up by the bobbins used. There are different bobbins for different float requirements.

The Bell CAN have cutouts for a better ventilation, but this is not necessary and it's not the case in almost all bells which are designed and produced by OEM's, for example BMW. We measured a lot of temperatures to check if there is any need for a more complicated bell design, but it isnt. If you run GP tracks, you are perfectly fine running the bigger CP9665 calipers with 25mm pads and you are not going to have any problem. The Bell of the PFC discs is also flat without any ventilation cutouts, so telling its a bad design without would basically mean the design you now bought is bad as well.

So again: In our kit there is NO design issue. NOTHING is made wrong. Even further: In case of the 378x36 discs which were used in this kit you could have just put the brembo anti rattle hardware off and mount them without. Stating the discs are not making "clicking" noises without the brembo pretension hardware and using this as a proof they are going to click, is again, absolutely mindblowing.

 

And just again a comment to the comparison of the PFC discs with their own system mentioned and used by 24/7 and the AP System of our set:

We have 2 customers who both had the PFC system (Schirmer also uses this system) and they switched to AP discs with the float in the disc style. One case is the youtuber Tom Schütze, he switched from 378x35 to 368x36 BTCC AP Racing Discs.

The AP discs (while being used) had a life which was around 4-5 times higher then the PFC!

This car gets driven mostly on the north loop but also a lot on GP tracks. IMO it's one of the fastest (if not the fastest) streetlegal BMW on Bilster Berg.

 

So from my side in the really finished now.

But I have to recap one last time: We took back a custom made kit, 2 months after it was ordered with discs which look like shit (just to remind again: Those were NEW 378x36 discs, which are 1000€ ++) based on information, which are wrong. We did took them back just because we did want to make everyone involved happy, we were nowhere forced to take back anything. We even split the kit, so you were able to keep the calipers, which are sold out EVERYWHERE.

In my world this would make me write a good review, because I can assure every other shop out there would have decided different.

But in your case this leads to spreading wrong information, saying the kit is shit when you did not even try it and continue to do so, when everyone who posted here is telling you, you are in fact wrong.

 

Like I say: Mindblown, absolutely mindblown....

I could make a looong post, but at this point its just mud throwing - i'm tired of discussing with you. I made my point to why i think why your kit is discount, cheap and rubbish. 
One key word though - brake cleaner. 
Also its not the AP parts thats anything wrong with. It's the parts supplied and milled by you that arent up to standards. AP is fine and good quality. 
To be fair, the PFC tophat i will mount, does indeed have slots drilled for better cooling but you wouldnt know ofcourse.   

You are free to be mindblown, I rather something else.

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So you think its ok giving back NEW discs and telling me to use brake cleaner?

Man coooome on, please just think about it... I´m really loosing my mind, that you think its ok deliver back NEW discs like that. There is no discussion about that, that this is just WRONG.

And the brackets and bells cannot be designed wrong, like i said.... The Float is NOT changed because of the bells. The level of loat is ONLY changed by the used bobbins.

 

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vor 46 Minuten schrieb frontside0815:

So you think its ok giving back NEW discs and telling me to use brake cleaner?

Man coooome on, please just think about it... I´m really loosing my mind, that you think its ok deliver back NEW discs like that. There is no discussion about that, that this is just WRONG.

And the brackets and bells cannot be designed wrong, like i said.... The Float is NOT changed because of the bells. The level of loat is ONLY changed by the used bobbins.

 

You think that an unprotrected discs wont rust? Damn, and i thought you would have some basic knowledge. 
Dude, if you care so much, go put a coating on them, so they can withstand to be stored in a trunk of a car, lol

Btw you didnt have ANY problems when you inspected them at the delivery. 

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It's interesting how you can always get lost... true to the motto... the world is stupid and only I'm right... that would make me think.

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vor 44 Minuten schrieb M.R.:

It's interesting how you can always get lost... true to the motto... the world is stupid and only I'm right... that would make me think.

There are always stupid dudes…they feel better when they start hating someone/ something they don’t know. Just believing one person is …correct: stupid ! 
So he can believe in 24/7 and spend there all the money…not our problem.

I would love to discuss with this kind of person in real. Maybe one of us will meet him at ED or somewhere else around the ring. Will be very funny. 

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Never seen such an ignorant and rude behaviour. It’s a shame how this Viking guy react to all members here. Especially as this is a really nice and helpful community.

Trust me someday you are going to meet the right person who has an appropriate response for you.

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vor 11 Stunden schrieb KT89:

This is not the first time I have heard and read that customers of 24/7 Performance are bashing other companys.
It is quite obvious that after the first talks at 24/7 Performance, customers always go home with the feeling that everything that has been modified on their cars so far endangers their safety to the fullest extent or at least was put together and installed in an absolutely bungling way. That should give you something to think about.
Personally I think this business behavior is unprofessional.  The customers are used for trench warfare and personal vendettas. This results in unobjective statements.  
 

i experienced that on my own.
karl gave me the same thing for the purpose of braking and I don't drive a brake from 55parts.

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Am 1.1.2023 um 18:40 schrieb VikingPower:

Yeah its good your fanboys are happy with your "so called" floating setup.  Your anti rattlekit is from Brembo brakes, they doesnt even fit, lol. 
There is a reason to why Karl called you, its because your product is bullshit, i didnt ask him to do that!

So amazing how much trash someone is able to talk if he doesn't even have a clue. 

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I think everything is said to this topic. Everybody made his point.

So we could continue the thread with @VikingPower's M135i and stop this braking-disputes here, or it will be necessary to close the whole thread!

And just a friendly reminder for @VikingPower, that's not how we usually talk to each other here. A respectful interaction between our members has top priority! Please obey this for the future.

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So I now had the pleasure to drive the car, with new engine, and a whole lot of other work done to it. I have at this point now put on over 2500kms the last Month. Car is solid at this point and is ready for many more trips to the racetrack. 
  
I had some fun on Nordschleife before Carfreitag,. 
Unfortunately only 2 laps without yellow flags for a whole week. To crazy with yellow flags this year compared to last i was driving the car on Nordschleife, even in the weekdays Monday-thursday up to carfreitag.
So I mainly spent my time on GP track in the easter weekend, which was lovely, and a very nice track to drive.
I also had the pleasure to meet up with some friends, from this forum, enjoy a stint together on the GP track, and show and tell everything about the car.
So all in all, easter was a great pleasure and i will for sure be back next year again. 

At this point, i would like to thank my friends and workers at 24/7 Performance who have been involved in building a my car and let me join the wrenching long into the nights, the banter and all the food we consumed together. 
Also a special thank you to Karl and Maria, for all the reasons you already know.
See you later this summer!

And a couple of videos ofcourse:

Nordschleife

Nürburgring GP Track: 

 

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Jesus, how much horsepower did you end up with? This looks like 600+...and it might be the camera positioning, but this does not at all sound like an S55, more like some weird hybrid drivetrain. Did you change the gears as well?

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Am 23.4.2023 um 00:51 schrieb matt:

Jesus, how much horsepower did you end up with? This looks like 600+...and it might be the camera positioning, but this does not at all sound like an S55, more like some weird hybrid drivetrain. Did you change the gears as well?

I ended up with about 480-500hp, still need to have it put onto a dyno and made a more smooth torque curve. Its still an N55 engine, butits been bought from an M2, so it has the same oil system as the S55. The gearing noise you hear, is actually mostly the diff, since we run solid ALU bushes on the whole diff. You can also hear some gearbox noise from the stiffer gearbox mounts, but as the speed rises, diff noise takes over.
Camera is mounted just behind the rearview mirror, if positioned lower, it would even give more sensation of speed. I will have to check which refresh rate, im recording at, but i think its at 50hz.  

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Absolutely enjoying driving this car.
Still need to learn my braking points with the big AP brakes, i tend to brake too early, but i guess as the season goes by, i will relearn the car. Not much driving these days though, as im busy with other things in life. But i do find time to shed some weight out of the car. 
I also need to have the car setup ones again, after 3700kms, the rear is losen up again. Not sure why the toe or camber is changing, but i would guess a eccentric lockout kit would do the trick, at least on the toe arms. Will be going back to Karl later this summer and have a check up. 

BTG 2023 3wheel.jpg

DSC08625.JPG

IMG_20230412_170737_621.jpg

racetracker_19750725_318227.jpg

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Still enjoying this little fucker of a car. Car performs really well, but on GP tracks i'm getting overheated gearbox, which sends the car into limp mode, until cooled down for a few moments.. 
I had some fun at my local track (Padburg park), achieved a best lap so far at 1.08,1. I should be able to come down to 1.06,xx at some point, but with the Nprdschleife setup, it understeers waay to much, especially in slow corners. Nevertheless, here is a video of the full stint and i had the track fully for myself.

First couple minuts, are warm up laps. 
 

 

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A little throwback to when the widebody squad met up on the ring.
Hennings car to the right, Nico's in the middle and the last one is self explanatory.
Soon we will be back, hopefully we can manage to bring both Charles and Nico's cars together in a pic with mine. Would be an absolute killer of a photo to have all 3 1ers together that's running the BMW racing widebodykit. Or to have a small footage of them all together on the track. Would be a lovely train to be in! 
Next mod on my list is a 3way racing suspension, the clubport doesnt cope with the dynamics of the car. On the rear the rebound control is too poor for the car, so it tends to jump and skip across bumps on the track. 
Also on the limit, the car tends to understeer quite a lot, but i will try to figure out the settings on the front axle next time around the racetrack.       

widebody club.jpg

widebody club2.jpg

widebody club3.jpg

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Last week, a group of friends came together and enjoyed the Nürburgring all together and 2 of us, went to Spa Francorchamp too last friday. That was really good fun, and also nice to meet some new faces, to make the group even bigger for the future.
Had a lot of good fun with Charles who is also one of the coolest germans ive met, very colorfull and swagger dude! :4_joy: 
It was very nice, to see his car, which sparked my first desire for a widebody 1 series. Its very cool to see how his was build compared to mine - very similar and yet so different. One is a true clubsport build the other almost a full racecar build without ac and things like that. 
I enjoyed the barbecues in the evenings with the other lads, had good memories from there and also i managed to finally do a sub 8 lap after a total of 70laps on the ring. The optimal lap is 7.45, but i guess my ball arent big enough lol! :4_joy: TBH laptimes, are not the main thing i strive for, but its nice to know i can do some pace and be able to keep up with the my friends at some sections. The car drives absolutely like a beast, thanks to the team and friends behind me! Now its just the driver that needs more experience :1_grinning:

Link below for Charles doing Shenanigans!

Produce.mp4

racetracker_23762229_380500_(1).jpg

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