Thank you Erik! 
I will get the Millway adapters when im going to order the CS fahrwerk .. I Still need to save up a good amount of money. Hopefully i can order the clubsport in April .. They are soo expensive, but i guess they are worth it .. 

Hello ..

I have a question about kw clubsport 2way, is it possible to mount millway camber plates on it, instead of the KW camber plates?
The reason to this, is because i have millway camber plates, which has the F8x "dom brace" .. I know when i will order KW clubsport, that the original top mount for F21, wont fit the "dom brace". 
If the millway won't fit on the suspension, do you know, if the F80 topmount will fit on the F21 struttower? I mean, if its the same as an F30 strut tower, then it will fit my car. 
Maybe we have any experts here. 

You can reply in German if you want, i can use google translate to see your answer. 

Thanks guys ..   

Am 12.1.2021 um 20:53 schrieb Krabbenschubser:

You‘re welcome!

I’d most definitely do an appointment in advance to ensure they can take care properly and with no hesitation.
Alignment itself won’t take too long, as long you only need this.
With coilovers you’ll need up to 3h, easily. 

For the modern BMW KW Clubsport is among the best you can get for a street legal car,  besides ÖHLINS maybe. 
H&R Suspensions are pretty damn good, if you’re ok with a non adjustable suspension, which can be a very good Solution too. 

Raeder is KW Partner as Philipp Weber and Custom Racetec as well.
MKR Engineering in Kelberg is ÖHLINS Partner and a pretty experienced workshop as well. 
Nasy Performance is H&R Partner and very experienced with Trackcars as well. 

Sorry i havent answered you before now. 
- Sure I will to call them and have an appoitment, when needed. I just found out locally to me, there is a shop who has a Hunter alignment tool, so i think i'll let them do the aligment, with the specs i have received in this thread.  
I have read alot of good reviews of KW clubsport, but i'm afraid that it probably will be out of my price range. Bilstein B16 Pss10 is probably what i can justify to pay for.
But what kind of H&R suspension do you have in mind? Maybe i can combine something that already works with my H&R springs, if i just need to change my dampers, i kind of like the right height that i have currently. But i definately want lesser bodyroll and bouncing in the corners.  

Thank you for you dvices, i appreciate it alot! 

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Krabbenschubser:

Sounds like quite a nice plan for this summer!
I suggest to visit on of the workshops around the ring the next time you´re heading there, as they can help you as good as possible.
e.g.
Philipp Weber, his workshop is at Rent4Ring,  in Nürburg  Philipp (@that_nurburgring_guy) • Instagram-Fotos und -Videos
Carl Schwarz and his Team at Custom Ractec, in Kelberg  Start - Custom Racetec (custom-racetec.de)
Raeder Motorsport, in Meuspath, non porsche cars division of  Über Raeder Motorsport - Manthey-Racing (manthey-racing.de)

Just to name a few.
A good alignment is well invested money, and if you´re maybe planing on putting a coilover on your car it makes even more sense.

Thanks buddy! That some very helpful information.
I did think go to Raeder/Manthey, next time i'm around Nurburg, to get a proper alignment and maybe some tips to improve on my car.. 
Oh man, who wouldnt love a Manthey build gt3rs  Well well, dreams are there to head you in the right direction or just to sleep better 

Next winter i will plan to do some coilovers.. I think i want something 2 ways with rebound/damping setting in one knob, just to make it a little more simple for me to adjust.


 

vor 17 Stunden schrieb xerik:

Ahh okay, I didn't read you run that much camber in the front.

I also drove with -3° camber up front with daily use and had absolutely zero problems, I even drove it with winter tires for a while.

With -3° camber I had 0°04 toe in (each wheel), that was about the perfect amount of toe in so the steering was not too nervous but still very direct.

In the back I also had 0°13 toe in (each wheel), nearly the same as my alignment with stock suspension. I wouldn't go with anything lower than like 0°12 - 0°14 toe in if you got stock bushings and no uniballs, because the bushings are so soft that somethings you almost go to toe out, if you don't have enough toe in.

The 0°13 added stability, ecspecially with higher speeds and on track, I wouldn't want to miss

Okay, i will try your alignment setup this summer, and see how well the car will perform this summer on road and track. I will attend some trackdays at Padburg park this year, they have already put out the dates on their website. I am as a driver also more comfortable with a car stable at higher speeds, i have been on the Nordschleife for the first time in August, and i could immediatly feel how unstable my rear end felt.. i drove both the GP track and the Nordschleife and man that was some fun. Now i just need to upgrade the car and come back and do more laps next time. 

Oh back on subject.. i have no plans of uniballs unfortunately, in Dänemark TüV wont approve of use, so i would need to mount some sort of a stiffer rubber bushings or something like millway bushings perhaps. The thing is, if there are clicking noises from any suspension parts, when they test for play, they will tell me it is broken and shouldnt do that. so I am well aware of what i can do and cant do, unfortunately. 

thank you for chiming in to stear me in the right direction with alignment specs, and ofcourse also thanks to the other guys chiming in. 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Krabbenschubser:

Hi,

-2.8 is quite a lot of camber for daily use, even though it’s understandable due to the wheel size. 255s on a 9j wheel is quite wide. A 245 or a 235 could help here as well. 
Regarding toe in at the rear, it usually adds stability as it does on the front as well (where it also adds in turn-in response, but that also can be done with toe out here - be careful with that adjustment —> as toe out on the rear it would mainly be used on hardcore drift cars and is pain in the ass at higher speeds and in daily driving)

Wheel alignment is pretty difficult to explain in a few sentences and to be honest, I’m learning still myself. Unfortunately I’m not sure if Wolfgang Weber’s book “Fahrdynamik in Perfektion” is available in English, as I’ve found no informations on this. 
But, there should be something out there in English on this topic, maybe you can find yourself something to buy and learn from. 
As complex as it is, it’s totally helpful. Many workshops even don’t know how to do this stuff correctly, so having insight is key. 

Hi

yes, i know it is a lot of camber, but it seems to work pretty well, i dont have issues with front tyres locking up under hard braking, so i think is still sufficient. 
I made some measurements with a ruler back in Decmber with the rim width and 255 tyres, if i remember correct, the rubber surface had 228 mm from outside to outside where it is mounted to the rim and the rim had 229 mm from inside lip to inside lip, so there are basically zero stretch on the sidewalls but there are some rim protection from the tyre sidewall..

Yes i understand wheel alignment is a learning by doing process, but also if a very good source of information like books/other people experience can help a lot to stear one in the right direction. And as you are saying, you are definately right in this term "Many workshops even don’t know how to do this stuff correctly", in Denmark we have so little motorsport capable people, because it is really not in our DNA as a country. Motorist are sadly a hated culture here.. If you are a petrolhead, some people automatically think you are an uncultured idiot. 
This is also, why I as a Danish man, have been going to a german trackdayforum, because germans have a lot more experienced especially on the higher end sport cars.   

vor 18 Stunden schrieb Krabbenschubser:

I’d recommend to try it like this:

camber front -1,5/-1,7
camber rear -1,2

toe in front 0,10 in total
toe in rear 0,15 each

I need to run at least 2.8 front camber, because i run a 18x9 rim with 255 ns2r, otherwise my front tires are going to scrape on the fenders. I know that the inside of my wheel will wear faster, but i am okay with that. 

But i see your recommendations are very close to Xerik so i will definately try to aim for an alignment close to both of you.

What would the difference be with more or lesser toe in, in the rear have a impact on? 

vor 15 Stunden schrieb xerik:

With stock suspension and H&R springs (M235i), my alignment was like this:

Front: 0°00 toe (you can't adjust the camber anyways)

Rear: 0°12 toe in with -1°50 camber

If you go with more toe in in the front, your outer shoulder will be scraped even more than it already is with stock front camber.

With your front toe at 0°00, how was the straight line stability? I have around -3° camber, so i think with a slight toe in, i should be okay, without riding on the outer shoulder? 

I like that you use a little toe in - in the back, i can imagine that the rear end feels stable going through fast corners? Are the 0°12 the total toe? (0°06 each wheel?) 

The car is on H&R springs with stock EDC dampers. 

Bump

Hi guys

I have millway street camber plates on its way, and also an M4 alu strutbrace (BMW 7855865) with reinforcement for support bearing (BMW 31302285700) to retrofit on my f21. 

I would like to hear you BMW F20/F21 owners wheels alignment setup, for use on track and/or also on road. 
I would like to have SOME sharp turn in, but i also want straight line stability, because of daily driving, i know i cant have the best of both worlds, but i am okay with that. 

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Kappacino:

Should be fine. I ran 265 on a 9 "which was not 100%. So a good semi slick 235 should be okay with 9"

Thank you! I already have a 255 on a 9 inch, on the rear wheels.. they actually measure 263mm, so i would also guess, that the same tyre in 235, should measure close to 245.. Guess, i'll have to wait and see, when i get them around :-) 

Hi Guys

I am in this situation right now, that  cant figure out if a Nankang NS-2R in the 235 dimensions (Secton wide propbably close to a 245) could fit a 9 inch wheel? 
Does any of you have any pictures with this combination? Preferable pictures of 18x9 rim with 235/40-18 Semi slick tyres. 

Best regards Lars

Google Translated: 

Hallo Leute

Ich bin gerade in dieser Situation, die nicht herausfinden kann, ob ein Nankang NS-2R in den 235-Dimensionen (Secton breit wahrscheinlich nahe an einem 245) ein 9-Zoll-Rad passen könnte?
Hat jemand von euch Bilder mit dieser Kombination? Bevorzugte Bilder von 18x9 Felgen mit 235 / 40-18 Semi Slick Reifen.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lars

vor 3 Minuten schrieb xerik:

Neither the KW/ST camber plates, nor the Millway plates make any clunking noise. Just a slight more tire noise.

I wouldn't go for a V3 if you plan driving on a track, it's just way too expensive anways and too soft for the track. You could go with M4/M3 LCA, which gives you about -2° degree camber and a stiffer front axle and is pretty cheap (like 320€) to begin with.

If you go for a KW V3 and buy camber plates, you are pretty much near the price of a KW Clubsport, so I don't see a point going that route.

Im trying to mount a 9 inch wheel up front with a 255 tire, to run a square setup, so i cant run M4 lca, unfortunately. Maybe they are to soft, but cant i just buy a stiffer spring rate, and the turn dampening and compression up? I think the KW V3 or something similar will first be bought next winter, and the camber plates will be with me in january so i can testfit before ordering rims to the front of the car. My driving will be 80% road and 20% track. So i want something that can be turned relative stiff to track days. I know i wont get the BEST track setup, but what i want are something decent, for both track and street.   

vor einer Stunde schrieb Patty:

What's the point of buying unibal camber plates for your stock suspension if you want to go Clubsport? I just read something like € 500 for these plates. Better take that money and get some coilovers, some ST and KW already come with unibal camber plates.

 

You cant get st with camber plates for my type of car, unfortunately. 
KW V3 comes without camber plates, and i think i will put on a V3 on my car, its still a daily car, i driven 42000 kms, since august last year. And also i think for a rookie like me, you dont need to have a 2500 eur clubsport suspension to learn how to drive and become faster and faster. :-) 

Gerade eben schrieb thomasgobs:

Hi Lars, 

if you tend to go into the Clubsport direction we recommend to go for the uniball version. As @Kappacino said they are a bit more noisy than OEM topmounts but still OK.

We run them on our daily M2 for example. 

Of course a KW clubsport suspension is the better solution in terms of track performance but it also a whole other level when it comes to the price :-)

A lot of our customers go your way and start with more camber with our camberplates and upgrade to a complete suspension afterwards. You can sell the camberplates used for a good price as well. So the money is not completely lost. 

Hope that helps :-)

 

 

Hi Thomas

Thank you for your reply, and also thank you for the Protrack Rims, they came in today :-D 
That sounds good it's not a completely waste of money, i will as you say, need to start off from a pricepoint where i can be with for now. Upgrading, turbo, wheels and tires arent cheap coming, and also christmas presents for the family. So one must do what he can, and stille have some satisfaction. 
I think i somehow will go KW v3 and have these Millway camber plates on top of them, arent this sufficient enough for track driving? 
I am nobody to judge what is good and bad, from a drivers perspective, i have everything to learn, so my guess are a 2500 eur clubsport coilover are overkill, vs a cheaper version, like the KW V3..

Thanks to you and everybody for the replys! Keep em coming.  .

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Kappacino:

New uniball plates will never do clunking sounds. If they do there would be play inside the bearing  .

 

There is a bit more of vibration and noise in the car but no knocks or bangs 

HI
Okay, i will try to write to Millway and hear what they will suggest, they must know what could be optimal, and also could tell me if my wishes can be met. :-D 

Hallo

Sorry for English, i am a Däne, and i will in future make a thread to present myself and my car. 

I am in a bit of no mans land, when going for a suspension upgrades, for my BMW F21 135i. 
Right now i have stock EDC suspension with H&R springs.  My car is a daily car, but it will slowly transform into a clubsport style car, with coilovers, bolt in cage and so on.
I would like to know, what the noise/vibration  difference, and lifespan will be with the millway UNIBALL camber plates, vs the street version? 
I can live with some vibration and noise, but i dont like clunking sounds. 

PLease help a newbie.. 

Thank you guys. 

Best regards Lars  

To sum things up, i found that Gtechniq C5 wheel coating, could be optimal, i have read a lot about this, and some people say, that even after 6 month, they are easy to rinse, with just water, also with heavy track use, so this is what i will coat the new rims in, thats for sure. 

vor 19 Minuten schrieb enzo_aus:

very interesting discussion:

"I think" that smaller is better, of course the width and height of the tire must match the rim ... not so simple a subject ... the experts in the forum can certainly pass on their experiences.

e.g. with me:

VA: 8.5x18 ET35 with a maximum of 245/40 R18 - from my point of view more does not make sense on an 8.5 

HA: 9.5x18 ET35 with a maximum of 265/35 R18 - in my opinion, more does not make sense on a 9.5 

Basically, a squared setup would probably be better, but then you have to retune the entire chassis (including stabilizers, springs and co.), Since the series is already designed for mixed tires ...

Try it with the smallest possible spread between VA and HA (currently still 30mm difference -235/265) to minimize understeer ... 

 

theoretically there would also be space in my wheel arch: 255/35 + 275/35 - would theoretically be better, but would need wider rims because

255 on 8.5 and 275 on 9.5 is too wide in my opinion 

 

Kind regards

 

Enzo

 

 

Im am running a TTE hybrid turbo, so smaller won't do it for me.. I'am running michelin pss right now (I know, bad trackday tire), and i have traction issues up in 4 gear with 245 tire also on the street day2day driving. I will test fit the 9 inch wheels i have ordered, with 20 mm spacers, and see if that could be fitted in the front, without rubbing on the strut and fenders. If it will fit, i will be running a VA255  HA265 setup. 
 

I have just ordered 2 18x9 Protrack one for my M135i .. 9 inch et50 in the rear, will mount a 265 ns2r tire there. in front i will maybe have 18x8 with 235 ns2r .. if i somehow can fit an 255 ns2r tire in front, without pulling fenders then i will do that. 

Thanks everyone! 
I will definately do the ceramic coating then, i can hear that this is where i will get the biggest advantage when coming to clean the rims, i can live with brake pads who are dusty, f its easy to just wash away. I will do some research and see what i can find about the products you guys have recommended, i am so tired of my ultra leggeras are a pain to keep clean. 

Hi everyone

Greetings from a Däne.. 

I am in here, because in my country there are hartly any track persons online

I have a couple of questions, regarding brake dust. I have on my m135i 370mm mperformance brakes in front, with EBC disc and EBC redstuff pads.. I think my pads are very dusty, after washing rims and car eberything gets dirty within 2 days. 

Is it possible to have a good brakepad which is good on track but also works on daily basis, without to much dust? 

I will ceramic coat my new Protrack one wheels when i get them. Anyone knows of a good brand? Currently looking at gyeons ceramic coating. 

Best regards VikingPower/ Lars

I am pretty happy with running 5w40 on everyday driving and trackdays with my N55.. Just make sure to change the oil frequently. 

Sorry for English, ich ist aus Dänemark und sprächen nicht sehr gut Deutsch. 

Am 11.6.2020 um 0:08 AM schrieb Z1XO:

Today I was finally able to drive it again. After an accident, the front and the hood (sword is still to come) ... I took the opportunity and packed the new bikes on it and tested it: D 

Hallo 
I'm sorry, but i dont write deutsch i am from denmark. Can you please tell me what the sizes are of your rims? I have also been looking to put on Protrack one to my car, but i cant figure out, what size i need to order them. 
Thank you, best regards from a fellow Nordschleife addict aus Dänemark.